We couldn’t ask for a better group to talk about tough discussions, negotiations and objections than this group!

An Sean Kerr, an aviation insurance agent with Chappel, Smith & Associates and David Pearl, a retired aviation attorney turned copywriter, join Paula, John and Mickey to talk about our toughest conversations.

Most of us have had more tough conversations in the last year or so – learning how to deal with them well can really make the best of situations, solidify relationships and make your business more successful!

[embedyt] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwYkppZc5R8[/embedyt]

 

Transcript of Conversation

 

Mickey Gamonal: Cool, cool. Good deal. So, my name is Mickey Gaminal with Gamonal Tutors, ASVAB domination. If you or anyone you know is going in the military you can look me up GamonalTutors.com.

Paula Williams: Paula Williams with ABCI and also Mickey’s mom and John’s wife and we help aviation companies sell more of their products and services.

John Williams: And I am John Williams. I work for her but I do, in the event that we get, and we do get questions on business consulting rather than marketing and I take care of those from time to time.

Sean Kerr: I am Sean Kerr with CS and A Aviation and personally, I deal with mainly the aviation insurance space. Folks that have businesses or within the aviation space or have an aircraft in conjunction with their business. So that is kind of where my bailiwick is within the big aviation space.

John: So you be one thirty-five and ninety-one.

Sean: Correct.

Dave Pearl: Hi. I am Dave Pearl. I am the FlyWriter. I write for aviation businesses. If it can be written, I can write it. I will give your message wings.

Mickey: Sweet. So let us jump into tough negotiations. Personally, my business is run at a different caliber as far as how much people are spending and things like that. But a lot of times you will hear that that is not as relevant as we think it is. Oftentimes, it is more about rapport and I think that is the theme that we come across in our book club a lot. A lot of our readings say it is all about how much people like you, how much people trust you, and how you can deliver on that. But, going through tough negotiations and objections, I think trying to… One of the best things that I read recently was ‘Never Split the Difference’ and I have thought that the best method of dealing with tough negotiations and objections is to acknowledge them before they come up. So be like, you know, “I know that you are going to say this cost too much. But my question is, is your method really going to save you that much money? Does it save you that much money long term?” Something along those lines, acknowledging what their objection will be before it comes up, I think is probably my favorite way of the objection from what I have seen.

Paula: Wow. Yeah, that is good. And that was a great book. So this is almost like the takeaway selling that you and I were in a course by Elliot, I do not remember his last name.

Mickey: Elliot Smith.

Paula: Elliot Smith, yeah.

Mickey: That might be an artist. I am not sure.

Paula: [laughs] Anyway, we will acknowledge Elliott in the credits and things like that. But his thought about kind of the takeaway selling, if you are not into this a hundred percent, if this is not something you really want to do, this is not for everybody and you know, kind of starting from that perspective of the objections upfront and I think that worked really well for both of us since we took that course and that is also in the Never Split the Difference, too.

Mickey: Yeah, I feel like it really resonated more in Never Split the Difference because I know in the course there was a lot of sales stuff, there was the five Ps, and your pitch, and go down the pathway and all that sort of thing. But yeah, dealing with objections usually comes after all of that, in my experience. And I think if you can knock those out upfront, it is just so much more powerful and I am not saying that I have the most experience with this sort of thing. But yeah, I can definitely see where that is helpful. That is powerful.

Paula: Yeah. So you do it in the pre-frame, you know, here is what we are going to talk about and this may not be for you and that is cool, you know, that is perfectly fine. We may walk away from this conversation knowing more about you and more about me, but you know, we do not have to make a deal today. So, that is cool.

Mickey: For sure, for sure.

Paula: Yeah.

Mickey: How about you John, any thoughts?

John: No, it is great when you are selling a product or service but that is not the only time you sell it. When you have negotiations with an individual or individuals and you are trying to do something that is not in their interest to do, it is still, what you said is very, very good to be able to do it is not always possible, but it certainly is. I had to fire a couple of individuals in my life. One was a private sector individual and one was actually in the military. And I mean, my enlisted personnel. I was an officer.

Mickey: Wow, that is tough. Having to fire an enlisted person from what I have seen.

John: It is even tougher and you will understand if he was in what they call Sanctuary he was in his seventeenth year.

Mickey: Oh, wow.

John: So the individual I had to fire in the private sector. You know, there are rules you have to follow when you have to tell them thirty days. You have thirty days then you got sixty or where we were headed would be nine. But when it came to the final conversation, I told them what had to happen and said you left me no choice. He said I know. He says no, I agree with you. And I said okay, we are just totally not expecting that. But of all the stuff that led up to it this what made that happen. Whereas in the military, I had to go to my boss, the colonel, and tell her that this is all we have to do. And she said, “We can not.” I said, “Well, Pam I do not like that word and I said there is always a way. At the very least we have to get him out of the way so we can continue,” and the little back story on this the colonel I work for when she “hired” me, okay. I was in the flying organization, I went to the data process organization, and they had been failing tactical evaluations one after another. First, they failed operational readiness inspection and they said good tactic values and they were failing those, and I said, “Ma’am, I can fix that for you. We are going to have to get rid of this guy. He has got to go away.” She said, “Lieutenant, whatever it takes.” I said, “Yes, ma’am. So you put him somewhere else so it is not in my line,” and she did. And we passed the first tactic eval with flying colors. But you have to do what you said is a good thing, but it requires insight, it requires observation, it requires thought and you got to actually get a lot of research into it before you actually go have the conversation. Even in sales, have an object or a service. Kind of know your customer.

Paula: Yeah, both customers, in your case because you have this guy and then you have the rest of the company, you know.

John: Yes.

Paula: And you can not serve both, you have to do something, and that sometimes involves a tough conversation.

John: Yeah, it is not easy. I mean, the guy that was in the private sector was surprised. He said, “No, I agree with you.” Okay, whatever. Anyway, you ask me about that time I told you how to build a clock? I agree with you.

Mickey: Cool. Right on, right on. How about you Sean?

Seam: To make sure I am understanding the process, being the first time and all, basically, am I supposed to just kind of go off of what you all are saying, or do I need to have an objective?

Mickey: So, it is a free flow thing. But whatever you think, like the topic is tough negotiations and objections. So whatever insight you feel you have, even if it lines up with us or if it is something new is totally fine. Yeah, whatever insights you have on tough negotiations and objections.

John: And you can disagree with us, that is good too.

Paula: Yeah, an experience or a story or anything you like.

Sean: Yeah, so we have forty-five years of expounding, no, I am just kidding. So, two things actually. One is, Paul and I recently spoke of the book that I have gotten done reading by Marcus Sheridan. They Ask, You Tell, it is a business philosophy, and Mickey, he brought up that exact deal. Okay, Marcus Sheridan, they ask, you answer. Okay, that is just in the name of the book, that is the principle, right? It is identifying what everybody is asking about your product and going and communicating it, and not belaboring that point. Otherwise, I will stay on it because right now I am even writing a paperback to our company on how to better implement the idea video and this idea within our marketing strategy. Shall we say one of the bench engines of our marketing strategy? But yeah, it is spot on for Mickey there. There is a lot to be said about having objections handled at the forefront. But I think that you can also just implement them as you go along or utilize them as you go along but to that, I had a situation and I have not really thought too much about it so that I do not know how productive it will be. So pardon me, but I had dealt with, six months ago, out of the blue, I had an operation, will remain nameless, that basically sought me out. I knew of the company and actually when they were smaller our agency worked with them, they even acquired more business and we basically helped pull their fat out of the fire, in turn, the partners chose to go a different direction after a year. Well, you know you lick your wounds and move on. So a few years later, which is now last year. A third party comes to me and says, hey this brand, and starts describing it, looking to talk to you about trying to at least interview, basically, for doing their aviation insurance, and I said, is this by chance Brand X? And he chuckles, because yeah. I said, okay, so I know these people very well and so we went into a little bit of how I knew him and I said if this individual is going to be involved, I said I do not know why I would be involved. And he said, all right, tell me, explain more and so I just went in and so he was like, that is the guy who is basically all the other partners are gone, but he has now stayed and he is now brought in some of the partners. I said, okay. So just let you know and he chuckled and said I understand because he knew the guy’s personality. And so I agreed. Just the short of this story goes, I agreed to go up there and visit with them because they are on a whole different level and it was like, okay. Yeah, I can help you. Especially if you are in the growth mode, you need direction because you are about to go really fast, because you are about to acquire some other operations and because I mean, they are literally across the United States. It is an FBO Charter operation. And so went up there and I thought I had it in my mind, maybe I did not communicate it well, this is like just that when I am thinking when you talk about objections and what have you, his question, he went through said, hey, this is what we are doing now and kind of gave his story and he goes, so you know how many charter operators does your agency have? And quite honestly, I do not know why it threw me off maybe because I was not necessarily expecting the question to be from that perspective. I was like because I do not think in my twenty years have I ever had another operation to say how many, wanting to know a number of them do I do. Sorry, as I said, my brain can go into engineering mode quickly and sometimes literally trying to one, two, three four because I could tell that is what he wanted. I ended up giving him, we have got just out of our agency, you know, me personally this is about how much we have. Agency-wise, shoot! I said, in surprise about how much we have and he goes. Oh really? He goes and kind of delves in a little bit further, I said yeah, I mean as I said, I will come back with a more definitive answer for you and we went into talking about some of the things that they were doing and I said, well, are you communicating that or rather is that being communicated with your current insurance company? And they are like no and there was a reason we talked about a few different things. And I said, all right. Well, I said to me that would be as I understand you guys are basically interviewing people. I said that would be something you need to do. So, I guess I am giving a little bit of my capital intelligence away. But yeah, you know, you need to do that, and then you know, it kind of went on from there and the conversation ended. I ended up getting back, as I drove back down that afternoon, I got ahold of some folks at the office, I said hey do me a favor. I said, give me within a reason give me the exact number of X operations you have. That night I put a draft an email together, think about it, put it out the next morning, said all right, this is what I want and then I shoot him an email with ten bullet points, if that, and basically they were just like you could read them all on your phone, it was how I was really trying to get it, right?

Paula: Yeah.

Sean: So all that to say is the objection or negotiation aspect of your question was I still to this day do not understand because they came back to me, sorry to finish out the story, the third party came back and said, yeah, they chose to go with a different agency. That is it. Okay, you know, I hear you. I know of this agency and they say, really? Now your ego gets all puffed up and geez, you are the agency of the South but I really did that agency and say, you know what? I bet you they did because they have a very large East Coast operation and I said, I bet you they probably utilize that operation as a kind of like oh, you know, everybody knows this brand out there in the US and that is the guy. Apparently, I bore David and he ended up needing to go do something better, but I think you are right. Now, I feel like I have gone on long enough, but it was interesting because I really did not have a direct conversation to follow up with, why they went to the other agency. I just never really felt like I had a good grasp of it? What is the deal? What is the… whatever.

Paula: So sometimes when people throw up objections or ask questions or whatever, it is not real. It is just a reason that they do not want to do business with you, you know, they have already made a decision, but they are and you know, they want to appear to be fair. They want to appear to whatever, so did you feel like they already had their minds made up before you went in?

Sean: That is an excellent point. Probably so.

John: Why do they ask you up there if they already had their mind made up?

Sean: Well, that is why I sat there and thought. I think that they wanted to say, oh you know what? We dealt with them before. Do we want to go back to him?

Paula: Let us see what has changed since we last worked with them last?

Sean: Yeah, and quite honestly, we have not done anything wrong. Their partners dealt with a very large, the company that they dealt with is technically no longer even in business. They are now in the,
I mean, they are an aviation insurance agency, but they are now in the process of having to go out and their business model is acquiring other aviation insurance agencies. And they are not even doing business anymore. I did think about calling back, this third party, and said, hey, you know what? This is in December when I said hey, you may want to call him up and tell him that I have just taken over five of their accounts, even though they have missed out on an opportunity for me to help their one account. But you know, again that is me just being in there.

Paula: [laughs] You have to get that little dig in there.

Mickey: All is fair in love and war, man. I mean, shoot! You might as well. Like, everything is fact-finding, right? Like it sounds like you are coming from a place of ‘this is the information that I have,’ you know, it is all sincere and sincerity. It is all on the table and I think Mom is right. I think she is right on it where people tend to when I am being a sales call about fifty percent of the time when it does not come through, it feels like they are looking for me to give them the reason that it can not work. You know, like they are trying to figure out why it is not going to work out, and especially since you went back to see somebody who you had worked with previously, my suspicion would be that now that he is kind of the front dog, he wants to show that he is still open-minded, right? He wants to show, “Oh, look. This was somebody who I did not want to work with before but I am so much more growth-oriented to where I was back then that I even bring them back in to see how I feel. But truthfully, he probably still has his own motivations deep down five years, ten years, whatever. If you said to someone, “Hey, I am not going to work with you anymore,” that sticks to both parties. Do you know what I mean?

Sean: Yeah, I mean there is so much pressure in our world. I mean our aviation space is so small.

Paula: Yeah, right. And that is why we have to be careful. In fact, in one case we fired a customer, you know, and we have only done that once in…

John: Now, we are going to do this.

Paula: The amount of time that we have been in business and you know, we do that very, very carefully, but you know the reason we did it is because it is a small world and because this person was mistreating our suppliers, our photographers and stuff like that, he was chewing people out and getting them to do more work than agreed to and you know, he was just being manipulative and not ethical and that sticks to us. You know what I mean? So we can not have that but we had to fire and that is a stigma that speaks to us and sticks to him. You know, we are not going to ever do business with him again unless they change hands or have some reason that we know that things are different and that is not going to cause the same problem again, but I think he did not have absolutely any doubt in his mind what the problem was, right John? I mean…

John: Oh, yeah.

Paula: We drafted an email and we were not trying to make it fit on a phone. [laughs] We drafted an email, with here what we have tried, here is what has not worked. Here is where we are leaving it. Here is where the money sits. Here is where the work sits. You go forward, we go forward. It was like a divorce agreement, you know, and…

John: Well, the thing that was the final straw was he refused to send back the photographer’s equipment that he said he was going to do until we… I do not remember, until something here. Oh…

Paula: Right. Until he agreed to do more work than we had originally agreed. And so he locked up our photographer’s equipment in a room and told him he was not going to give it back, and this guy had rented that lighting equipment and things like that that he meant for the purpose. You know, we are like, that is not cool.

John: We immediately drove out to where they were, showed up on his doorstep and the CEO is gone leaving behind his second-in-command. Whatever I said no, no, no. This is what it was and I showed him the agreement in writing. “Oh,” I said, so that means that we are going to back out today. We owe you this much for that part of the time, right?

Paula: Yes, work done today.

John: Right, he was leaving a check. I said, one, we do not use checks. Two, I am going to do it immediately. So I got a computer up, logged into the bank as we review this and this is how much we owe you, he said yes. Wired it to him right then on the spot.

Paula: Just trying to be as clean and straight and current and right now as possible. So, I guess a lot of people make the mistake of either arguing, getting into this. Well, you said, well you said, well you said. You know, no. It is not the way it is done and like we do in the class. I wish we could come up with a better acronym for this, but ARS: acknowledge, reassure, solve. We need a C on the front of that something, so that is CARS, but acknowledge, reassure, solve, you know? Yes, I understand. It has been a pain in the neck to work with us, this is not working out for either of us, I assure you that we are going to give you your money back, and here it is right now. This is as clean and good as we can be and we recommend that you get somebody else to do what you need to need to be done and make sure that everything is in writing. Have a nice day! You know. So…

Sean: So, here is a stupid question. Stupid as in silly.

Paula: No, there is no such thing.

Sean: Yeah, there is.

Paula:

Sean: [laughs] Okay. We all have teenagers, no I am just kidding.

Paula: [laughs] Yes, we have.

John: [laughs] We all have teenagers.

Sean: So, all right. I thought about it because I told these folks I said, hey give yourself three years, but whoever you go with and so I thought about why I do have a tickler in my system that I think a year from now, yeah, I think it put it in there for a year from now to then just do a quick touchpoint and then would not touch them again for at least another two years. Yeah, I go back and forth whether you even have a touchpoint? I guess some of that is because on my own… Whatever, my head game. It is like, I am not really sure if there is even a reason to even reach out to you because we all know each other and we know what you can do, you all chose to go this way and that is whatever. So I just do not know if it is worth it. I guess that it is, of course. I do not know if it is even, should I even reach out to him or just want to see him in a BAA conference, Oh, hey kind of thing.

Paula: Yeah.

John: Well, yes, the answer is you should because it does not cost you anything and you never know, things change.

Paula: Yeah.

Sean: Yeah.

John: You never know if you do not reach out if they change positively for you or not. If you do no, you are going to lose. If you do you might still lose but at least then you know. But if you do not, you are for sure going to lose.

Mickey: Yeah, like going to Vegas with a credit card that you do not own. You can roll the dice all day long because it does not really, it just costs you time which of course, you know, your time is valuable by all means, nobody argues that. But you know, if it is in regard to that potential windfall it is probably worth rolling the dice.

Paula: Yeah.

John: I mean, just a reach out to say, hey, how is mom and them and hope you all doing okay and I will not try to knock you over at the next BAA conference. I will just trip you. [laughs]

Paula: Yeah, just a real quick, you know, things have changed for you, things have changed for us. Here are a couple of the things that we know of. You know, how is it going? As you know…

John: Yeah.

Paula: David, you are back.

David: Oh, yes. I did not know that I went anywhere.

Mickey: You went dark for a second.

David: It was not again. I do not understand how that happened. But I was well…

Paula: We are glad you are here.

David: I was following the conversation and it just I feel like, you know, Aviation there are a lot of companies out there but the community, when you start segregating it into insurance and things like that is very small. I mean, most of my background in aviation other than when I was in the Navy is on the legal side, and as far as I know and maybe Sean can clarify but I thought there were only basically three companies that insured, that actually provided the insurance and that the agencies were just funneling clients to those providers and as a result of that limited field, it meant that every time I was involved in a case, I knew who the attorneys were for the other clients, there was a certain group that represented one airline. There was another group that represented somebody else. So if we went to settlement conferences and things like that, it was like an old, old home week. It was always the same guys that I was dealing with and we could not represent other companies because we were conflicted out and so it was almost set in stone. I just was thinking about that. So, I am thinking, from an agent standpoint, given that the product is pretty much the same thing that you are getting, how do you differentiate yourself? Well, you know everybody is going to buy a Chevy. So how are you going to, because you really can not control the rates? I guess they got some type of history and if they go through if you vet them and they got various things maybe they can get a better rate. But in any event, those were not negotiations that I was part of, I think we are talking about difficult negotiations, and almost all my experience with negotiations involved cases that I was involved in and you go to law school and you want to go to trial because you think yeah, you know, I win, they lose. I am a hero. Experience teaches you that even when you win you are not the hero at least in most cases because it costs too much to win. I had a client tell me after we won a case, well, I guess it was after he got his bill. He said, well how much would it have cost us if we lost? And so, you go on into those scenarios, I think we learned that if we could get the case resolved early on recognizing that there was going to be substantial costs incurred before any judgment was received, if we had to bring in experts and we had to start deposing people all over the country, sometimes internationally, that the cost would skyrocket and nobody was going to be happy if we had to go that far into it. So it was always difficult going in there because I am not negotiating with my money and there was a tendency to get a little, I do not know, cavalier maybe? So, hey, it is only fifty thousand dollars. Where we are just fifty thousand dollars apart. Well, if I had to pay that fifty thousand dollars, it would have been a much different negotiation and so I try to keep that in mind. But there were a lot of factors going on in the negotiations that I was involved in that I wish we could have cut a little bit closer to the bone and when I first got started in automobile personal injury cases and so forth, well, I do not like to criticize other attorneys but there are a lot of attorneys, you know, the guys that advertise, have you been injured? Come here and they would promise the world but often the case did not merit such a high promise and so they had a client with expectations that were completely unrealistic because the attorney had given them those expectations and so we would go into a case where liability was certainly in question, but the plaintiff’s attorney had told the family that they were going to get a million-dollar settlement out of this and we would go in thinking, wow, what is it going to cost to defend it? We would typically throw some money at it. But maybe not even five figures, you know something that it was a three-day trial or a week trial and this is what it is going to cost so get ready for it. Then, you know, it is a sweet-looking kid and you can not predict everything so we would try to come up with some factor. But I walked into many settlement conferences where you know, we were not even within five hundred thousand dollars of each other and that is not a good basis to negotiate, but there was absolutely nothing we could do from a negotiation standpoint because the plaintiff’s horizons had been set so unrealistically, so I just think that when you negotiate you have to know the players, and you have to know what is motivating them and it is nice if you got a good authority figure. If I had a judge, like this is the judge that would be hearing the trial, and maybe he can get him both sides. I expected the judge to hammer on me, too. But you know, of course, I was always right and I was always right on and the other side was being unrealistic, but it frustrated me no end when we would go into a settlement conference and they are opening at we want seven hundred fifty thousand and say, well we think the case is worth twenty-five thousand and then the judge would not you know, take us, you know, aside and basically beat on us with a sledgehammer for a little while to get us, you know, well, what are you really willing to pay? And what are you really willing to accept? And so we waste a lot of time, maybe even go to trial and get a result. So as far as difficult negotiations if both sides were willing to recognize that the definition of a compromise was I feel like I accepted too little, the other side people, I feel like I paid too much but at the end of the day, you know, we can live with this agreement. If you go in with that mentality, I think that you are going to get something done and if you do not you are going to be spinning your wheels and nobody wins in that instance.

Paula: Right. You know, I think it is very seldom that we get and you know for this conversation, this is like the perfect group of people because we got an insurance guy, we got a retired attorney, we got military and we got civilians. So I just had that idea. It would be really cool to maybe do a lightning round, you know one piece of advice that you have for people to do tough negotiations and you know people getting that from this group I think would be really valuable. What do you think?

John: Before that…

Paula: Yeah.

John: I mean, Dave you really laid some stuff out and I did pretty much because when I got divorced, my attorney did what you said, I mean, he said look you are right here and I can win but it is going to cost me as much to win and extend it by a year as if you just paid. And I looked at it and said then I can make a business decision, write a check and we are done. He said, exactly. I said, okay do it.

David: I think there is a lot of psychological factors that go into any litigation, any trial and the reason that we have a court system is so that people will use words instead of guns and knives to go to resolve disputes, but you know that it pushes things out, the time factor gets in and especially in the aviation cases when pilots were on trial and families have dead loved ones and it was just a process that you had to go through that. They really did not want just the money, just the judgment. They wanted some kind of sense of that guy was wrong and the world has to know how wrong he was or you know, I had a case where it was a husband who had done something very stupid in flying the plane his wife was next to him and she was seriously injured, was never going to walk right again, and I think he wanted the world to somehow say, no you were not the one that caused her injuries, it was the other guys. And so all those factors go in. I just think that understanding that there are issues, not that are on set, you know, that are not really, you know, yes, it is wrongful death but it is you know, you are a bad person or something else that is kind of implied in the discussion that is not really articulated.

John: Anyway, so now you do your research on your lightning round or whatever.

Paula: What do you think, Mickey? That sounds like a good idea.

Mickey: Yeah, that sounds great. How did you want to play it exactly?

Paula: Well, I was just thinking, you know, like one or two sentences if you can sum up the best piece of advice you have for people who are going into tough negotiations. What is your one piece of advice?
Everybody cool with that?

David: Sure.

John: You might get some duplicates for sure.

Paula: Yeah, and that is fine. You can just sum up, be the short version of the story you told a minute ago, and that is what I am going to do. So, you know, that is fine.

Mickey: Good for editing purposes, right? I guess you can say build a little trailer something like boom boom boom.

Paula: Exactly. So that is a lightning round. There you go. I have heard other podcasts do this and I think it is really cool. So, you know, I am just being another pet but you know.

Mickey: Mom, if it works, it works. We do this all the time. Okay, cool. So my one piece of advice for tough negotiations is to start with the tough stuff first. So, discuss the thing that they are going to like the least right away and then you can talk about anything else after that.

Paula: It is all uphill from there. Cool. All right, my advice is to not argue and instead to acknowledge, reassure. So.

John: Wow. I am going to tell you to do your research. Know whomever you are negotiating with, be it a client, an attorney, anybody, and do your research.

Mickey: Client-focused. Good to go. Go ahead, Sean.

Sean: Very similar to John but a different twist was just knowing your client powers information. For information is power.

John: Right.

Mickey: Got it. Go ahead, David.

David: I would just say, have a clear understanding of what your bottom line is.

John: Nice.

Paula: Yeah.

John: That is great, actually.

Paula: It is not always money.

Mickey: No, it is not.

John: Yeah, peace of mind is extremely expensive.

Paula: Right.

Mickey: Yeah, I think if somebody could do all five of these things at once there would be no stopping them. It is just not that it is not that easy, but I think it is all really, really good advice. You guys definitely have experience in sales and that sort of thing, so that is great. Cool. Well, does anybody have any final words on objections and tough negotiations? Anything that they felt was left unsaid?

David: I would say that it is tough, but you can not take it personally if it is business, you look at it, that they are not saying that you are bad, they are saying that either your proposal is not what they want or something like that but I can not say that I was always successful in not taking it personally because you know you get enthused, you know, you start to embody what your client is doing. I had to pull my senior partner off the opposing attorney one time because he was taking it personally, but if you can remember the bottom line, what the ultimate goal is and work towards that and try to stay away from anything that does not work towards that, it is not productive to call somebody an idiot. It is not productive to say that is the most outrageous thing I have ever heard in my life. You know, if you can keep working towards the goal and recognize that any settlement if it is a good one, is going to be one where you think you paid too much and the other side feels that they accepted too little, but at the end of the day they can live with it.

Mickey: Good deal. Cool. Well, let us pitch out. So my name is Mickey Gamonal. Gamonal Tutors ASVAB domination. You can find me on TikTok, gamonaltutors.com all over.

Paula: Fantastic. Paula Williams, ABCI. We do marketing and sales for Aviation companies. So we help Aviation companies sell more of their products and services and we are just barely on TikTok but you are more likely to find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter, and podcast, as well.

John: Best thing I do is to edit. [laughs]

Paula: [laughs] Oh, we are on Audible now. I just looked this morning.

Mickey: Congratulations! I know you were going for that. That is awesome.

Paula: Yeah, it is pretty cool.

Sean: Sign out would be again Sean at CSA and I just help folks with identifying things that affect their bottom line in the insurance base.

David: All right. Hello, I am Dave Pearl. I am at flywriter.com. I write for Aviation businesses. If it can be written, I can write it. Let me
put wings on your message.

Mickey: Excellent.

Paula: Fantastic! Great job you guys this was actually a really, really cool group to have shown up for this particular topic.

Mickey: Yeah, I appreciate how applicable. Sean and David, your guys’ stories are worth like super, super real, you know, like very, very like this is what when I was trying to go for.

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