Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. The chief interest of Port Royal lies rather in the silent witness which through two and a half centuries she has borne to the naval activities of the island of Jamaica, and in a measure to those of the British fleets which have from time to time visited these waters, than in any part which she has played in the internal domestic development of . I appreciated your comment, John. When my friends are all gone. Pathetic at best. I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. So thats just an opinion. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders. That might be the case if your view of Christianity is limited to the local mega-show, but there are places in the world, and even in the US for that matter, where Christianity is much more Biblical and robust, and is not even close to fading away. They are all one and the same. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. Much as I seek to be gracious and forgiving, it is extremely difficult to accept these new confessions at face value. It's literally in his DNA, as his father Jerry is the co-author of the popular LeftBehind series of religious novels. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. Bad decisions lead to pain. Whose job is the ministry? While I dont agree with all PJ says, I will say that I too have concerns whenever free speech is abridged, however well intended the reasons. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. We dedicated a new building as the new home for the Crystal Lake Campus in 2008. of good behaviour Having read the explanations of some of the associates and enablers who have pulled away from HBC, this does seem to have been part of why they put up with the wrongness coming from the top. What in the world is going on? All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! Thats my personal experience after over a decade in the fold, and several years since interacting with many former Reformed folk; no offense intended. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. More and more, I am willing to settle for walking with God, and being thankful for a community of people I may never meet in this life, but who support and encourage one another in the manner God called his people to do. And he didnt say crap, at least publicly. Who knows? The three terms above are from the Greek language, the original language in which the New Testament Scriptures were written. blameless I pray that God will continue to use you to shine a spotlight on wicked works of darkness in Christendom today. Oh, I probably am too self-righteous or self-centered or something. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. Held himself out as a model. After a while, he and his band of yes-men elders drifted farther from the Main Thing, allowing the main thing to be about them and schemed in the shadows to preserve their ministry. The wheels of justice turn slowly. but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. Your apoplectic friend needs to go read the Bible, maybe one of those verses the mega preachers who demand your trust intentionally ignore or havent read themselves, like this one: Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Psalms 146:3, Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25, Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. People should get out while they and their families still have some kind of faith. What would have been the point to allow comments after asking that? He produced the independent feature "Hometown Legend" at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. This was a guy who was lauded before thousands each week on the stage, promoted on a national radio program, spread his influence through 18 books. Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. The fact that its not supported by a single word of evidence is strong evidence that whats being said is entirely true. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. Ill be blunt, your post is silly. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. . Our musicians have taken to heart the mission, core, and purpose of Vertical Church music: To write songs of ascription for the church to use in worshiping Christ around the world. Beware! (ive mentioned my thoughts on this many times here & there at TWW, so apologies to one and all for yet another one. I do have to apologize for a comment that I made that was based on my faulty memory of the facts. humans decide who gets to be an apostle, the process of which is surely not unbiased. Since beginning its training center, Harvest Bible Chapel has helped established over 193 church plants across the country and around the world. Lord knows weve had enough explosions in the modern church. I have no idea how RadMan7 is there. I assure you that I do not see it as a Catholic problem, nor do I believe that all involved in the institutional church through the centuries have done so with wrong intentions. No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. Not. Then, you proceeded to brag on social media about how you werent releasing your full statement and had convinced other men with statements to do the same. all of this is deeply regrettable. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. Looking at the history of newer religious organizations created in the era of print is instructive and revelatory. ex HCA Staff: Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. If after that then the church must seek to cut off the relationship so that the sinner may be held account and that you may reach him towards restoring him. Thats too deep to answer. He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. Ive got to process that letter. Or an attempt to conceal more? If its any comfort, other steps are being taken. Dallas failed to mention that Fred Adams, James MacDonald and Luke MacDonald were listed as Producers for one of his film projects. TS00: I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. Iowa Steve: Maybe Christianity in all its forms has reached the Tipping Point Where enough believers realize their belief doesnt work for them anymore and Christianity will fade away? That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. I suspect that there is a world of difference between what we see in the NT and what we experience in our day, even in groups that try to adhere to the so-called Biblical model. Look to your own flocks people of HBC. Well, Im just a speck in the universe. Thats why the early church had congregational governance, rather than elder rule polity the Body of Christ had a say in who the church leaders were. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. The average American Christian has evidently become so open-minded about such characters that their spiritual brains have fallen out! He added the promise of millions of dollars in renos and expansions, via the Closer Campaign, in order to sweeten the pot. I am very glad for all your comments on this site. We are living through a decades-long trial of betrayal, and I have found myself weak of faith these last few years. its, like, the top christianese word that means so many different abstract things (depending on whos using the it) that it sort of means nothing anymore. If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. To answer your point about making the jump. Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. And she is asking everyone to back off. I read that as a statement, not a post open for discussion, and an appeal to stop the speculation and kibitzing over a tragic situation. In any normal group setting, the members will naturally turn to the most mature and experienced among them for direction and advice. And this is a relatively new development in protestantism, its just 45-50 years old. they are kind. I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. Crazy, huh? The worlds fierce winds are blowing, While the vast majority of pastors and churches can be trusted, disciples who have experienced a betrayal of trust have become sobered by the thought of joining another church. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News. I would be interested in hearing about churches your tried or are trying. For our setting and ministries, it would be very difficult. not quick-tempered Someone needs to write an article about the fake church watchdog industrial complex, including but not necessarily limitied to ECFA, MinistrySafe, Best Christian Workplace Institute. Thats really the point. Thus, I try to insert IMO where applicable. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. In April 2016, Harvest acquired a permanent church facility in Aurora to allow the Aurora Campus to continue to grow, both in number and effectiveness in reaching people for Christ. Why you gotta be so mean? Taylor Swift. Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. You wanted your letter to remain in the dark and hoped that no one would know of your hidden statement. You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid , unbiblical and mean people in charge. this time facilatated by the internet, just like the last one was with the printing press.. Well, age doesnt always equal wisdom, but it helps! That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. You are wrong on that point.The NT writers do make the point that there should be payment and encourage readers to do so. Ive heard the voice of my Savior, Christian celebrities would have no stage to perform on if they didnt have an audience willing to buy tickets. This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. Suggesting that the church do away with the building would be met by much weeping and gnashing of teeth. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. Lowlandseer: The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. Someone asked How high does this go? That movie became a kind of a shibboleth at our church when it came out. I can understand your desire not to become a public figure. Law Prof: I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. He stands to shield me from danger I just think some people do not care one tiny little bit about what the Lord said. I judge not those who remain I truly understand the depth of the manipulation but hope they do not fall victim to the crisis of faith and to the abyss that often follows when all youve built your faith on falls to ashes. This is something that all Christians in a church community should take to heart. dee: You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. I AM GOD AND YOU ARE GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT GROKS IS GOD TOGETHER! Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. View All Webcasts TV Broadcasts Devotion Greg's Blog Virtue Radio Greg Laurie Podcast Harvest Events Ebooks Not even fit to be chair of my department at Average State U. Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. And what is love? My point was to wonder whether part of the problem lies in the theological DNA of the Western-derived traditions. Here is a short article describing the NT words used for the offices: Watch a Sermon. James MacDonald was one the most well known mega church pastors in the U.S. until he was fired from Harvest Bible Chapel, the church he founded and pastored . Rather, as all of these spiritually abusive situations demonstrate, the flock is likely to be deceived and preyed upon by wolves in sheeps clothing. But this just doesnt seem to fit. We will note however, that within the church, the world elder is not only a reference to age, but also a position or office of the church. Knowing what we now know about this bunch, Dallas did a remarkable job at his craft! Because MacDonald earned it. Let the truth flow. Where is the elder who stands up and admits, this thing was a wicked, immoral, money-making scheme, corrupting and drawing in people with the lure of mammon and using the money of naive, giving individuals, many of whom gave sacrificially to honor God? Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. Church, this is good advice for all of us! I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. Its also possible it wasnt a continuous period of teaching, that there were times when they all had to go to work because they had families to support. Why would a person, individually, or a community put up with this behavior? Recreated vertical version of "Hallelujah" sang by Heather Headley reflecting on the sacrifice of our savior. A continual cycle without end. They will now export it across the US. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. i mean, do we actually believe what we say we believe? Time and again in these situations, people who were involved exclaim about how God was working and God was doing things! I thought it myself in the situation I was part of, years ago. GreekEpigraph: Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? (1 Peter 4:14). 3/2/2023 - 9:30am-11:30am. It sounds more like men puffing up their status among the brothers . Fred not only took out debt to fund new purchases, he took out additional debt on already encumbered buildings. However, he has never won . In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. Gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad? WHERE TO . Ken F (aka Tweed): Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. Giving is another way we worship Him and it allows us to demonstrate that He is more important to us than material things. We have seen through the falsity of that which proclaims itself the infallible voice of God. Children were crying, looking around with fear on their faces, teachers were trying to physically comfort some by embracing them, and even removed some children. Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. Dallas was in charge of Production and Visual Media at HBC. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? . Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. We rejoice in Gods faithfulness to us the first 30 years! Covidfrom the start of the pandemic and lockdowns, the Worship and Creative Teams busied themselves with recordings, writing coronavirus updates, and developing worship environments that would be both accessible and God-honoring in the height of the pandemic. They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. Looks like they got down into the great-grandchildren before the Church degenerated to the ways of the gentiles. I know you really think more highly of me than you ought. So yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder, Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely (Lord Acton). I dont have any answers. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school. "And at the same time, I'm doing a show about humans who are flawed people," he says. You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth.. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. That changed on Friday. Reported that Camp Harvest lost over $200,000 in 2016. Living in what the people of Chicagoland call "the northwest suburbs" theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, teacher Laura Barringer had a front row seat when things began unraveling at Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek Community Church, and furthermore were acquainted with many of the people who became a part of our daily Twitter and blog feeds about both stories. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. Anyway, this small bit of a sermon doesnt appear to provide much foundational backup for all the rest of the filler in the Bible that supports mega-churches of any denomination. Truth (the Word) + The Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) = Revealed Truth. 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